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Post by Yarn Witch on Oct 27, 2014 15:47:16 GMT 12
How indeed?
Well, what if you had all the keys from the beginning? Like, if it was Rosa, it'd be easy. Sure, the door was locked from the inside, by the people inside. Who were alive and well, and faking an attack from a witch over the phone, perhaps as part of the plan.
Rosa races down the stairs, unlocks the door, and kills everyone, and then everyone else arrives to see the scene. Rosa isn't considered to be a culprit, because they just heard the culprit in the room over the phone with Kumasawa.
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Post by animex75 on Oct 27, 2014 15:52:10 GMT 12
I thought, hey perhaps Rosa did it! "But wait, Battler is the detective! If anybody had slipped out of the room when Rosa opened it, he would’ve seen them! If that's the case, wouldn't Battler have seen Rosa commit murder?"
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Post by Yarn Witch on Oct 27, 2014 16:00:44 GMT 12
Well, of course Battler saw Rosa leave the room. Everyone in the study saw her run downstairs after the telephone call, and followed.
But, depending on how quickly they followed, there might have been enough time for her to commit the murders before they all made it to where Rosa was. If Battler was say, still making his way down the second floor as Rosa committed her murders, she might even have enough time to leave the room and discover it 'locked' for everyone else's benefit, if the door wasn't already open. In other words, Maybe Rosa was out of Battler's supervision when she committed the murders, because she left the study first and everyone else reacted after she did.
Rosa unlocks the door the first time while it's still locked from the inside, so the red is fulfilled.
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Post by animex75 on Oct 27, 2014 16:18:30 GMT 12
I did manage to think of a way she could've gotten down, but wouldn't somebody have heard Rosa killing the servants? And what of the blood? If Rosa had committed murder, wouldn't she have had blood on her? And how would she know which room to look in not for blood from the already-dead furniture seeping out under the door?
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Post by Yarn Witch on Oct 27, 2014 16:44:27 GMT 12
Since Kanon's death wasn't confirmed until the "All people shown as dead are truly dead", it's possible he was still alive and an accomplice. Or not. All Rosa really needs is for someone to move the bodies all into the same room. Rosa had already talked with her accomplices about where to go. If Kumasawa is her accomplice, Kumasawa may have suggested they all go to the room Rosa 'found' them in.
As for the method of killing, maybe, along with deciding the room she would meet her accomplices in, Rosa suggested they have something to eat or drink, and it was poisoned, so all the furniture was already dead, and all Rosa would have to do would be stake them. It'd probably be too difficult for her to shoot them, unless the storm outside provided some cover for her to do so.
As for the blood, if everyone arrives downstairs to find Rosa in the room already, she could have been checking the bodies to see if anyone was still alive, so of course she'd have blood on her from that.
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Post by animex75 on Oct 27, 2014 16:56:27 GMT 12
However, all accomplices were dead by the time of my....mistake, so none of them could've helped Rosa. As for poison, the culprit was in the room with those victims as they died, so they weren't dead before I got here....
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Post by Yarn Witch on Oct 27, 2014 17:02:35 GMT 12
Right, right.... Perhaps they weren't dead, but dying? Alive enough, but not strong enough to fight back?
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Post by animex75 on Oct 28, 2014 2:13:04 GMT 12
"Perhaps I left them alive, but dying? But wait, the servants would've made a commotion, right? And if Battler was close enough behind Rosa to watch her open the door, how could she have the time to leave the furniture wounded, close the door, "unlock" the door again, all before Battler got to her? I don't see how that could happen...."
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Post by grimfang999 on Nov 1, 2014 9:35:57 GMT 12
Right, Im making a change to my theory.
Alternative theory: Kumasawa was an accomplice, but did not die immediately, and Kanon was not dead.
At the point of the phone call, all the family members were in the study, as all came running immediately after. This implies that the culprit needed to have been able to get down there and back between the deaths of the servants and the phone call. However, what if the culprit had killed all the other servants but Kumasawa was an accomplice and willing sacrifice?
The culprit would have had to leave the study, but the study door remained locked and it is unlikely anybody would have left through the entrance without Battler noticing. Its possible that the culprit went into another room and escaped through a window, knowing there was a route down as well as a route up.
They would go down and enter through an open window or maybe the front door, then head to the servants room and knock and be let in. The culprit would kill the servants and give Kumasawa a wound which wasn't fatal but would leave her in a position for rapid death afterwards. Kanon was not dead either, it was claimed by Kumasawa but if she is an accomplice how do we know Kanon was actually dead? Kanon was alive and an accomplice. Kumasawa and Kanon dragged Kinzos corpse from the basement to the room where the culprit had just killed the other servants. the Culpriit then stabbed Kanon through the back, careful not to get blood on themselves, and poisoned/injured Kumasawa to be weak enough to die when stabbed in the leg. A time was agreed which was a minimum for the culprit to return to the study. Kumasawa would call when she felt close to death and put on an act to beg for mercy until she felt too weak and died of blood loss. Kumasawa would have been able to lock the door and windows in the meantime.
The laugh was Kumasawas, changing her voice to sound not like hers. If Rosa ran far enough ahead, she would stab Kumasawa in the leg, who would die quickly but had just enough energy to lock the door behind Rosa before collapsing, then Rosa would wait for everyone to arrive before opening the door.
This theory accounts for the murderer being in the room at the time of each persons death, while granting a culprit out of the four remaining possible suspects and leaving them alive. It also accounts for why there isnt a noticed blood trail from Kanons body. For why Rosa doesn't have blood on her from stabbing people, blood does not explode out of people whenthe weapon does in, most is when the weapon is pulled out, which the stakes are not. Alternatively, she took off her dress just before entering and put it on before returning.
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Post by animex75 on Nov 1, 2014 9:46:58 GMT 12
Alright KnownNoMore, I'll do this.
I was getting desperate. How long have I been trapped in this room? Hours? Days? Years? "I have to get out, no matter what!" I thought back again to the circumstances of the deaths. Maybe Kanon was still alive? No, but, all people shown as dead truly are dead! Besides, he was staked in the chest, not the back. Perhaps, then, the furniture didn't die right away? Perhaps Rosa got ahead? But how could she have the time to open the door, stab somebody, close the door, have the victim re-lock the door and die afterwords when the culprit was in the room with the servants as they died, not to mention leave the room in the study where they had found the letter, all without the detective noticing? Preposterous. That needs so many variables, there's no way I could've pulled it off without someone noticing me.
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Post by grimfang999 on Nov 1, 2014 9:53:20 GMT 12
While all the people are truly dead, it isnt specified if they were dead when it said they were, or just dead at the point where the situation occured. Kanon was not said to be dead in red text, unlike all others. He is dead now, but he wasnt dead as Kumasawa claimed he was. For in the back, my mistake, but a small fix, considering he would be a willing sacrifice. Maybe Ill change it then for my error with the keys. Kumasawa died, immediately, and Rosa locked the door on the way out, only to reopen it on the way in. For the timing, maybe they didnt close the door until Rosa returned to kill Kumasawa, which means she would only need 15 seconds to go in, stab Kumasawa in the leg, killing her instantly, then running out and closing and locking the door.
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Post by animex75 on Nov 1, 2014 9:55:32 GMT 12
That still begs the question: how did Rosa kill the OTHER servants? She wouldn't have the time.
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Post by grimfang999 on Nov 1, 2014 10:03:54 GMT 12
Like I said, she snuck out the study in the way nobody could see, I was thinking from another room in the study but I forgot you are playing it is only one room separate to kinzos bedroom. but, if it were separate rooms, or she snuck out through another way that would be easy. She killed them all save Kumasawa, there was no time limit therefore no urgency. Only Kumasawa had a time limit to be killed in.
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Post by animex75 on Nov 1, 2014 10:05:56 GMT 12
Battler would've noted her leaving the area. There's no way she could've sneaked out for long enough to kill those servants and get back with nobody noticing her absence. It's just not humanly possible.
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Post by grimfang999 on Nov 1, 2014 10:17:11 GMT 12
In your version of the study, indeed. which means we come full circle, there is no real logical way for any to have left.
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Post by Segaco on Apr 20, 2017 5:22:59 GMT 12
(Is this dead? It's been 2 years but there's the chance that Nate still visits the forums)
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Post by animex75 on Apr 20, 2017 8:36:01 GMT 12
It's pretty dead, but feel free to post anyway. I got work now, so I'm not on much (basically just enough to deal with bot accounts) but I will get back when possible. Need to go find all my Reds and that answer sheet....
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Post by Segaco on Apr 21, 2017 7:45:15 GMT 12
This is my first time doing this please be gentle:
The red says "Battler is the detective! If anybody had slipped out of the room when Rosa opened it, he would’ve seen them!" But what if someone other than Rosa opened the door? Would Battler have seen them?
Also, thinking of the Rosa ran out of the study and killed everyone theory:
(So all the servants were found in the boiler right?) Rosa poisoned the end of the stakes and gave them to all of the servants who were accomplices. The servants then went to the boiler and locked the room from the inside. They then proceeded to stab themselves/each other with the poisoned stakes. So now they are wounded, not dead. One of the accomplices called the study, Rosa answered. Rosa then rushed out of the study and got into the boiler room. The servants died of the poison when Rosa entered the room, and since she was the one who poisoned the stakes, she's considered to be the mastermind, thus the culprit.
Maybe???
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Post by animex75 on Apr 21, 2017 8:45:30 GMT 12
Actually, they locked themselves in another room in the mansion. They had been to the boiler room, but that wasn't where their corpses were found. Anyways, *ahem*
"I thought again on the possibility of Rosa being the culprit. Perhaps someone had opened the door before Rosa and got to the servants. After all, without the detective around, surely a human would have been able to do my deed! They may have, however Until Rosa unlocked the door, it was locked from the inside! On top of this, the culprit was in that room with their victims as they died! Suicide is impossible as none of the deaths were suicide! Accomplices cannot murder, as doing so would make them culprits* and by this point, all accomplices are dead and there is but one culprit!
* Okay, this one isn't one of my reds, but it's in the main rules that accomplices cannot directly cause deaths (not in those exact words, but still) or they'll become a culprit. In this case, the poison would not have caused deaths without the servants attacking themselves/each other which would be the actual action that caused the deaths. Probably. At least, that's how I would interpret that situation.Main rules can be found here.
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Post by Segaco on Apr 21, 2017 13:16:35 GMT 12
-Rosa found the gold, Kanon was asked to be an accomplice and agreed. -Those two murders happened (The one in the shed & the one in Eva's room). -After the Eva & Hideyoshi murder, everyone started looking for the killer. Kanon told Kumasawa to go to the boiler room with him. -When they reached the boiler room, Kanon told Kumasawa that he was helping Rosa murder everyone and asked for her help. Kumasawa agreed to help. -Meanwhile, everyone else entered the study and took some guns. -Genji/Nanjo/Rosa put a letter on a table when everyone else was distracted. -Rosa then forced both Genji and Nanjo to leave the study. -Kanon and Kumasawa found Nanjo and Genji and asked them to be accomplices. They agreed. -They carried Kinzo's corpse to a room, locked it from the inside, and stabbed themselves with stakes. -Kumasawa called the study with the phone in the room and told Rosa where they were. -After the call, Rosa rushed out of the study and got to the room before anyone else. -She stepped on the stakes that were on Kumasawa's leg, Nanjo's knee, Genji's stomatch and Kanon's chest, killing them. -All the other people alive then entered the room and found the servants dead. Maybe? ?
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